Speaker 1    00:00:01    Join us as we gather around the hedge, where we dig into technology, business, and culture with the finest minds in computer networking.  
Speaker 2    00:00:20    Hello, Tom. How are you?  
Speaker 3    00:00:22    Hey, Rus. I'm doing well. How about you?  
Speaker 2    00:00:24    Fine. Long time no talk.  
Speaker 3    00:00:26    Yeah, like 17 minutes or something. <laugh> like's  
Speaker 2    00:00:29    17 minutes. Like it's crazy. That's so long. <laugh> and Yvonne, I don't know how he went without Yvonne for 17 minutes. That's  
Speaker 4    00:00:36    The real question. It's, it's easy.  
Speaker 3    00:00:38    We made it through,  
Speaker 2    00:00:39    We made it through. Tom and I went back to our little crying couches and <laugh>. We miss Yvonne.  
Speaker 4    00:00:48    Y'all need to do something about that.  
Speaker 2    00:00:57    Right? And now we are joined by Brett. Brett, what's your last name? I'm bad at this. Lovens. Lovens. That's what I thought it was. And I didn't wanna say it the wrong way or something. So that's cool. Brett Lovens to talk about recovery, which is really, I'm just gonna tell you, you know, um, I don't know that I've ever been through this specific thing. I've been through a lot of weird things in my life, divorces and stuff in the military that I don't really talk about very much because you don't talk about those things. And, um, you know, and just weird stuff. And, and this is one of those that I don't really have a lot of personal experience with. So I was really happy that Brett came on to talk about it, because I think it's really important. And it's not really directly in line of network engineering. It's not like we're gonna talk about technology or something like that. It's much more about soft skills. And I know that Mike Bouchon hates that term, so maybe we should ban it, but it's about real life stuff.  
Speaker 4    00:01:57    Well, engineers are, humans aren't, and so there aren't, there's this whole universe of human topics that shock I and all apply to engineers. I don't  
Speaker 2    00:02:09    Know if I believe you, Yvonne <laugh>. Well, you know, do you, do you have a, do you have a verifiable 20 page proof that that network engineers?  
Speaker 4    00:02:17    I just, I, you know, I, you <laugh> I was gonna quote Shakespeare, but I couldn't get it. But yeah, you prick me and I bleed. You know, it's that, that kind of a thing.  
Speaker 2    00:02:28    You don't, you don't emit electrons. You actually bleed. Is that what you're saying?  
Speaker 4    00:02:32    I do. I do. Yeah.  
Speaker 2    00:02:33    Wow. Amazing. All right. So I don't know, Brett, where to start with this, but just say that, you know, this is an important topic and we just wanna talk about the concept of addiction. And you're involved with an organization that helps people get through addiction and recovery. And I think that's really, really important for people to hear and to understand. So I guess we'll just turn it over to you and, and then we'll let the conversation go where it goes.  
Speaker 5    00:03:00    Well, thank you Russ, and nice to meet all of you. Uh, I'm really grateful of any opportunity I have to, you know, I'm, I'm becoming a loudmouth in this space. And see that's one of the problems is, is that there's so much shame and stigma around it that the opportunities for people to get curious about themselves or about the condition for people that they love is tough because addiction or substance use disorder, which is u usually a little bit easier for some people's ears than others. Other words, uh, it affects everybody. But, you know, it's just, it's hard to talk about. It's, it's hard to admit. You've, you've got, you've got trouble with it. And the disease likes us to be quiet. It likes us to do the things that I did for years. I'm a recovering out, I use the word, you know, first off, I'm gonna say the word.  
Speaker 5    00:03:52    So anybody that's uncomfortable with the a word here, it comes. 'cause I used to be, I would've turned off the, the, the audio immediately. So pause the word is alcoholic <laugh>. And, and, and I couldn't use that word. So the way I would pose it to somebody who is potentially listening to this and getting curious about themselves or somebody else is I'm incapable of drinking a little. It is just a fact. It took me a long time to deter figure that out. But that's, that is, uh, plenty of evidence and attempts at to the contrary that for me, the m word moderation is impossible.  
Speaker 2    00:04:34    And in that one area. And that's, I think, a first thing to start with. Sure. Um, is that it's a particular area. Now, before we go even further with that, would you all consider, also consider things like social media, gambling, other things like that as potentially, um, addictive or as something that's hard for people to have moderation about? Because I think there's also a big difference between the words addiction and addictive and tending towards addictive. Like something that can be addictive, even though it doesn't make everyone addictive, you know? And that those are very fine things that we don't think about a lot. And it tends to make us blame people a lot more for things that have happened. Um, you know, we, we tend to make it into a moral failing more than we possibly should, um, because we don't diff differentiate these words in these meanings. So I know I just laid a lot on the table there, so I'll let you,  
Speaker 5    00:05:37    And I, you know, I can talk plenty. This is between music, you can see all the guitars behind me, <laugh> between music and recovery, substance disorder, all day long. Um, I will stay in my story with this kinds of things. I'm not the person who's like, got the PhD in medicine and can talk about that stuff. I can talk about my story and, and, and, and I think probably it's true that I am an addictive type. I can get addicted to things very, very easily. Sometimes they serve me. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, that's where it gets a little weird, right? Because some of my obsessive, uh, things can serve me. Some of them don't. And for the purpose of, of what I could potentially bring to this conversation is my story around drugs and alcohol. I'm incapable of moderating. And it turns out that that's not, if you have this thing and you keep going, it doesn't really go very well as a general rule. Yeah.  
Speaker 2    00:06:26    And, and I'll just say that I think that a lot of people in the engineering world are addictive personalities. We tend to get railed, we tend to get focused. Um, and that can be a good thing and a bad thing. So, go ahead, Ivonne. Sorry, I didn't mean to  
Speaker 4    00:06:44    Yeah, I, I was gonna ask, like, so I, you know, um, I know lots of people who, um, e either have come to the place you have is like, you know, the, my alcohol use was destructive to my life and I had to just completely give it up. And then they go through a e everybody has a different method, but, but, but they've overcome it. I've also met other people who, um, when I share with them, I'm, I don't drink and, and really have never, they're almost wistful like, oh, that must be nice, right? And, and so for somebody who realizes that the way I consume alcohol or any other thing, it's no longer serving me. Like, it's not good for me. What, what would you tell them? Like what, what, how do they even start? Especially if it's been a decades long lifestyle. Like where do they, where do they start?  
Speaker 5    00:07:41    Yeah. Well, a great question. It's sort of the heart of the whole thing, right? And it's, it's, it's the heart of my story, right? How, how do I start when, how do I, and I would, I would answer probably as succinctly as possible is curiosity. So it's a journey for most of us is to begin to self explore. Um, to potentially bring in additional bits of information. Because most of us have this thing where they've also got what I call the bully. Work hard, play hard. Everything's cool, we celebrate, you know, well, I could give it up, but except for when I go to Hawaii, it can't do it then. And the problem for people like me is, is that once we get a little in us, it's all the way. And then the next day and the next day and the next day and years go by.  
Speaker 5    00:08:25    Not everybody's like that. And those that can moderate awesome, those that can go to six, go live and party like a rockstar for two days, and then go home and have a normal life, amazing. I'm not one of them. So I would answer that that way because I don't use the word should very much. I don't give advice very much 'cause I didn't really want it. Um, but I, but I can encourage somebody to maybe get curious about themselves or, or, because there's a lot about the disease model. There's so much out there and it's getting better all the time. Shame is getting better, stigma's getting better. So maybe just quietly starting to get curious.  
Speaker 2    00:09:02    And one thing I'll say here is I think that everyone has something they could be addicted to everyone on the face of this planet. And those things may be positive in some ways, but they can still be destructive, right? Everything that you can do, you can do to an extreme. Aristotle's golden mean comes into effect here that you can't overdo basically anything. And once you've overdone it, then it can become destructive. We don't always recognize that we all, we don't always understand that. And this, by the way, is the story of many people who've gotten PhDs, that they've studied their PhDs and they've lost their marriages over it, right? And they've done other things. You know, they've gotten so much into network engineering that they know every command of every Cisco router on the face of the planet, and every model number and all the line cards and all the skews and everything else.  
Speaker 2    00:09:54    But they don't have a life. Like they don't have a family. They have nothing else because they, they've become effectively addicted to the knowledge of networking stuff. So I think that's, those are all very useful and important things to recognize about yourself as a person. That you are no different than anyone else. We all have this. And I, I don't know if, if anybody else has encountered that or like faced that or anything like that. But that's one thing I think is so useful about your story, Brad, is that, you know, you're open enough to admit it, that there, there is a, there is a point at which you cannot stop. Most of us aren't open enough to admit that we just think this addiction's a positive thing. It's not even an addiction. It's great. I can do this. It makes me a better person this way without realizing that it really doesn't, it's really not that good.  
Speaker 3    00:10:48    One of the things that I have experienced personally, so I, I'm a leader of a church congregation, and so I am exposed to, uh, some of these stories and helping people with it. Sometimes I, to me, watching someone, uh, progress through the steps, specifically the 12 steps, but progress through the steps and overcome and, and realize that they're not defined, that their life has not defined by this, uh, has brought me so much joy. Um, and, and I hope that if someone is listening to this, like, I don't know, I, you, you can find your way up and out and it does not define you. And, um, there are some just some amazing things that I've seen humans do, um, going through this process and being willing to engage with it. So, um, there's, you know, and, and lots of us have issues and challenges, but, um, yeah, I just, I think it's really important for us to, when we, when the, the words addiction recovery should be something that if we're talking about that we're having the right conversation, we, those words should not be shameful, I don't think. Yeah,  
Speaker 5    00:11:45    Yeah. Yeah. And that's one of my, my, one of my main whys is to normalize the conversation so that this isn't, and I, I give you a specific example. You know, I've been at Cisco 12 years, right? And two of those as somebody fully engulfed in drugs and alcohol, uh, and then the rest sober. But before I wrote that blog piece that I think, you know, Russ, you saw and, and sent me a ping about, I knew one person in recovery at Cisco in 12 years, and, you know, 10 of those as a sober guy, right? So that's kind in my mind, that's a pretty nice evidence point around the non-normal. 'cause I can assure you, since that blog, I know a lot of people and not as many as I will, but in this effort, this accidental new life that I've stumbled myself into as this loudmouth normalization of, of this topic, um, there's gonna be more and more and more.  
Speaker 5    00:12:43    And I'm talking to other people in other companies. Um, the bottom line is, to your point a minute ago, Russ, then I'll, I'll be quiet. It's not unusual. I'm not, uh, unique. There's millions of people just like me. And it's awful nice when I find that out. And it took me a while to figure that out once I knew that I'm, I'm just like, it's just, there's all these people that are just like me. Well, that helps a lot. 'cause now all of a sudden I'm not seding alone and I'm not unique. I'm just garden variety.  
Speaker 2    00:13:14    In fact, I think that's a lot of the problem with the modern world is that we live in a world of social media. And social media wants us to believe that it is the way we connect to other people. And it's the healthy way to connect to other people. And honestly, it's not, honestly, one of the biggest problems I see that I, that I face, and a lot of people face, it's imposter strange syndrome. It's all across, is that people feel alone. They feel alone in what they believe. They feel alone in what they stand for. They feel alone in their addiction. They feel alone in just everything. And you would think in a world we live in, that's so hyperconnected. That's not true. But it really is true. And there are so many times now where I talked to people, I was talking to a guy the other day who I've known for 20 years, and he's not in the technology world at all.  
Speaker 2    00:14:05    He's completely, he used to be in public broadcasting, and he ran a podcast for 20 years, 30 years, and he's completely out now. And, um, you know, he said, the thing I find amazing is, is when I was podcasting about topics, is that people would call me and say, I thought I was the only person who was struggling with that. And now I realize, since you're talking about it on a podcast, I'm not, well, we're here talking about this on a podcast. You're not alone if that's a problem. Right? Um, and I think that's an important point to make. And not, not just an addiction, but in everything. You're not alone. We all struggle. We all have our problems and, you know, we need to like figure this out.  
Speaker 3    00:14:48    So, so Brett, I wanted to, I wanted to ask you, uh, uh, just from your own story, um, what was, what got you started on the, on the road to recovery? Was there, was there like an event? Was there something that happened to you?  
Speaker 5    00:15:01    I, I could go long on that. I'll go short. And, and I, by the way, is it okay that I mention my podcast on your podcast? Oh, yeah, yeah. Of course. Yeah,  
Speaker 2    00:15:07    Of course. Yeah. And it's okay if you go long, we're fine. It's cool. Yeah.  
Speaker 5    00:15:11    So, so if you like what you're hearing or if maybe some curiosity, and I'm talking about the per person who's in recovery. I'm talking about the person who's considering it, and I'm talking about the family members who are confused about their loved one. I, I've got a podcast going, it's part of this new life that I've stumbled into. So the fast answer to that question is, there was a period of time where I attempted, like I'd always, I'd never been interested in moderating, I'd never been interested in, in, I, I, I, I literally came outta college and went into a rock band and, and drove around with friends and vans and I mean, we lived it, right? And it was, and I wanted it, right? And that they, they call it the progressive nature of the disease, right? I was, I was on that path.  
Speaker 5    00:15:57    And at a point in my life I decided, you know what? With all kinds of evidence, that's pretty brutal, including scars, et cetera. I'm gonna try to moderate that moderation journey was seven years in the making. So, so I had no curiosity in terms of being able to reach out to anybody. I thought I was alone, unique, and I found myself failing daily. It was like driving with one foot, stomped down on the gas and one foot stomped down on the brake. It was not pretty. And it was full of self-deprecation, uh, guilt, uh, all kind, just awful. And then for me at least, um, as a part of that, I tried many things along that map path. Most of us do that you go to these meetings and stuff and you hear some of these stories and you find out, oh, that's my story too.  
Speaker 5    00:16:51    That's my story too. And there's usually some comical ones in there, including the, from my case, the Great Tomato Beer experiment, et cetera. Uh, there, there's a lot of these things in there. Um, but moderation kept failing. And so in May of 2022, I decided, you know what, I'm gonna finally figure this out. I, not 2022, excuse me. Uh, 2012, I'm gonna finally figure this out. I'm gonna get a drug, drug and alcohol counselor in front of me. I'm gonna do what's called the full court press. We're gonna go in there, and I'm gonna figure this out with the sole intention of continuing to drink, but getting some professional help on how to do it.  
Speaker 5    00:17:33    And if you want the long version of that, there's a whole podcast that I have on that where I tell that story at length. And, uh, the bottom line was, is this man and myself, he made room for me to get curious. He made room for me to, uh, have some self-discovery because until I wanted it for myself, there really wasn't much chance. Um, so I can go off on that one too, but to answer your question. And then it happened in a moment's time for me, it happened in a moment's time sitting with my wife, who I've been with 27 years. So she got a front row seat to this whole thing, hand on her, her leg. And I said to her, with eight beers in my belly, by the way, 'cause that's the only time that I had the courage to, to face this stuff, which is also a typical story.  
Speaker 5    00:18:17    And I said to her, Molly, not the a word. I'm somebody who can't drink a little, and I need to make a change. And that was, I'm convinced that something happened to me biologically. Um, and, uh, I drank for four more days. And, uh, when I stopped, I'm one of the lucky ones. Cravings went away. The obsession of the mind went away. And I started on a new life. And that's 10, a little more than 10 years ago. I've been, I've been, um, living this different life of a, of a sober guy that goes places and doesn't drink and do drugs.  
Speaker 4    00:18:51    Yeah. That's so interesting to me. 'cause it sounds like for you, just accepting the reality that that was your condition really unlocked the potential for you to, to choose a different, uh, path of action. It, one, one of the things I was thinking is that you were talking about being curious and, um, I, I find like more and more for me, curiosity is, is really, so who am I really? Who am I? Why? Why do I do the things I do? Who am I inside? How, and then, and then how do I wanna show up in the world? Right? And, and putting, stringing all those things together. And I, so I think it's, it's really interesting that, that you lean in on the idea of curiosity, which is fabulous for us as engineers, because that's our entire world, right? How does this thing work and why does it do it this way? And how can we combine these things? And so really, I, I love the concept of curiosity of self. And, and then how does that help me, you know, be who I really want to be, you know, as opposed to however I am today. That's fascinating.  
Speaker 5    00:20:06    Well, I'll tell you this too, just to have some fun with that. I use the word binary. Not everybody is binary, but I am binary and I am absolutely convinced based on watching a hundred stories that ha if I accidentally or on purpose have a swig, it's all over and I go back. So, so for me, to your point, like I had to get to that realization that it's binary for me. Not everybody is binary, right? But I've, I've, I know a lot of people that that is binary, and I'm one of them. Uh, so I I'm glad you said it that way. 'cause 'cause that's, that's true for me. Yes. So how  
Speaker 3    00:20:46    Did you, you, how did you come to that realization that it's binary for you?  
Speaker 5    00:20:51    Well, it was, it was partly just, you know, I call it my small voice. There was a small voice that goes all the way back to when I was a young kid, when I started trying out drugs and alcohol that knew that I didn't do it in a particularly safe and healthy way, right. Uh, to excess. But most friends I had, et cetera, it seemed okay, et cetera. But I, I know all the way back there was a little boy saying, woo. And I could tell stories that are, you know, that illustrate that. But I'll, I'll, I'll say the listener, the, uh, <laugh> the, the gruesome details. Um, but you know, for me, that that small voice would always get slammed down by the, the bull. I call it the bully. As soon as I've got my five beers in me, you know, we're off to the races, folks, you know, and I won't swear on your podcast, but you know, we're, we're going for it, right?  
Speaker 5    00:21:37    Always. And that's a daily thing for me. 30 days in a month, I'm passed out drunk 30 days. So, so when I had that small voice based on evidence, lots of evidence as to why it wasn't going well, and I had that conversation with that man over the course of a month where I went in there with somewhat of a curious mind and heart, and he handed me a book, I'll throw a book at the group. It's called I'll Quit Tomorrow. Uh, that book was not, uh, it was scientifically based, and it talk, it, it was talking to me, and it was basically telling me you're unable to drink a little. And that I could start to get my head around as opposed to, I have no, uh, I have no willpower. I'm a bad person. Um, what is wrong with me? Uh, and that's, that's sort of for, for me, the flip side of that. But instead, I have a condition now whatcha gonna do about it?  
Speaker 2    00:22:33    And and would you say that when you stop, it was a turning away from or turning to something else? Because I often find that people struggle with turning away from whatever it is they're addicted to. They actually need, like, I have a goal, I have something I am turning to that I want to accomplish more than this addiction is allowing me to do kind of a thing. Would you say that's an accurate experience, or is that like,  
Speaker 5    00:23:04    That's really well said. Uh, Russ, I've not thought of it that way. Um, so I'll, I'll run at it from, from my story again, which is I had no idea, um, what was going on when I got sober, when I had my moment of clarity, I didn't have any, um, I didn't have any support systems. I hadn't found my way into any kind of meetings or organization. I still felt like I was unique and alone, but now I was sober, right? And then I got curious about that. And so I got to the turning toward, again, most of my life is a series of accidents. And this was another one of, of sorts, as I find myself surrounded by people, in my case, alcoholics Anonymous, that were telling my story through their voice, and now I'm, now I'm leaning towards something, right? But if I have to answer you at the beginning, it was a turning away. Okay? I, I knew that this was the, the evidence was preponderant, the preponderance of evidence was, was brutal. And yet I continued and continued and continued, and it was getting worse and worse and worse. So when I made that change, it was the beginning of, I don't know what the heck is gonna happen. But starting today, I'm, I'm no longer consuming drugs and alcohol.  
Speaker 2    00:24:17    That's interesting. Just because I know people who grew, even, even something as simple as going on a diet, it's not so much that they want to lose weight necessarily, it's that they want to accomplish a goal that like, keeps them in. Like, they may start with, I wanna lose weight. Like, you know, I'm not comfortable with where I am or whatever it is. But over time, if they don't develop a goal, then they end up sliding back into what they were, because they have nothing to reach for, right? There's no out, there's no, there's no end of the road. There's no light at the end of the tunnel or whatever you wanna say. And so, I'm just wondering if that was your experience too, because that seems to be common to me from what I, what I talk to people.  
Speaker 5    00:25:01    Well, you gotta remember, well, you not, you remember, I'll remember and share with you like the level of, of craving and obsessiveness of the, the mind was, it's difficult to describe to somebody who's, what we call a normie or somebody who drinks and does drugs normally, right? <laugh> that level of what I call the train coming is like most of us, that's all in some way or another. We're always thinking about it, right? And so, um, I couldn't consider a goal, really. I, I knew that it, that I was riding an elevator that was going down and speeding up and it was getting bad. And there was a part of me that said, yeah, whoa, no problem. It's still fun. Right? Dude, you know, quietly pathetically drinking myself to sleep every night. Right? Um, and that's my story. But when I found out that, that other people are like that, well, that was helpful. Oh, really? I'm so that, you know, and, uh, and you probably have some experience with that, with your, with your congregation too, right? Hearing stories like that. Yeah,  
Speaker 3    00:26:04    Yeah, yeah. When people find out that this, that they're not alone, that that fact by itself is so powerful and they're very hesitant. A lot of people are very hesitant to go to that first meeting because they don't want to, they don't want other people to know. Even if they're strangers, it's very hard. But then once I've noticed, once they get to the first meeting, then it, it's the first step on a very long journey. But meeting other people is, is so critical and powerful. And, um, you know, my hat's off to those people. 'cause some people, that is a huge barrier. And once they co once they cross it, then um, great things start to happen for 'em. But yeah, that's, I, that's the, the power of knowing you're not alone. That's huge. Mm-hmm.  
Speaker 4    00:26:42    <affirmative>, you know, years ago, my husband and I worked with a faith, faith-based recovery group. And, um, one, one of the things that, that deeply impacted me, and one of the, one of the guys shared there, he had been a, a hard drug user for 20 years and, and had gotten sober. And he told us, he said, I would walk around with a thousand dollars in my pocket starving and not spend $2 on a cheeseburger because I had to have it that bad. And I felt like that story for me encapsulated like how powerful his need was and how consuming, thinking about, um, you know, for him it was heroin, how, how, how, how consuming that was, and that it is, it is not rational when you're not in that kind of mindset for, for those of us who, who don't understand it and haven't experienced it. And for me, that was like a powerful example of, of this is, and, and, and what I learned from that is there's tremendous strength that is demonstrated, um, when we overcome those kinds of challenges, right? Because there's, it's, it's, the, the power of it is, is truly all consuming. Um, and, and that, that is a story that I continue to go back to, you know, is that it's that, that powerful.  
Speaker 5    00:28:07    Well, and the brain science of it is not, not to, not to sound like a brain scientist. I've said, I would stick with my story and here I go. But you know, it's living in the oldest part of our brain. It's living in the fight or flight part of our brain. So we're, we're equating survival with getting, you know, my drunk on every night. And so that, so to your person's point, I mean, that's typified with down to food, right? That's how, that's the level that it gets to for us, that this is the same as breathing. Right? And it, that, that's something I've heard before. Like, hold your breath for a while now you're gonna start to feel like what it's like for somebody like me when the, when the cravings are coming on like a freight train. Yeah. That's not anymore though. Yeah. That's the other thing about it is once you break free, like some people takes a long time. Mine's in an instant. But the thing is, is it, it, it, it's doable. And I can go,  
Speaker 4    00:29:06    Yours was an instant after seven years of turn  
Speaker 5    00:29:09    After seven years, right?  
Speaker 4    00:29:10    Well said. So, you know, like you had seven years of this battle Yes. That it took you to come to terms with Yes. And accept, you know, that word is so big in recovery Yes. To accept the reality that, oh, this is who I'm, right. So it's, it's like that idea of an overnight success, but, but it, it was like you, you, you had to fight for it, right?  
Speaker 5    00:29:37    Yeah. Well spotted well spotted on that. Yeah.  
Speaker 4    00:29:39    <laugh>. Yep.  
Speaker 2    00:29:40    Keith's law in human relations or in human actions. Yes. It's the same thing. Like you  
Speaker 4    00:29:46    Can't, you're gonna have to remind me what Keith's law is, Russ.  
Speaker 2    00:29:49    Yeah. So you, any, any externally, apparently large step of, of capability in a system is actually the result of many small steps that are hidden from a hidden from you by abstraction. It's one of those things about abstractions, right? And the same thing is true of people, right? We abstract people. I mean, I hate to say it, but it's true. We abstract people. And even more so in the social media world, we abstract people down to that guy we know at work, or that girl we know on social media or whatever it is. And we don't think about them as a whole person as a whole life. We see that little presentation they put on at work or that little presentation they put on on Facebook, the, the, the A roll or the a reel or whatever it is. And we don't see them as a real person. And if we did, we might see their hurts and we might see that they're addicted to something, and then we could step in and help. But, you know, that's part of the feeling alone, I think.  
Speaker 4    00:30:41    Well, and I think too, like for the, the thing we need to remember is like people have reasons for, for why they are the way that they are. Um, and in social settings, for example, I think it's important to be aware. And, and, and I've never had a problem as a non-drinker just being like, yeah, I don't do that. I'm gonna have my club soda with a lime and y'all go do whatever. Like, if it gets uncomfortable for me, I'm just gonna, gonna gonna be out. There are other people at different stages in their journey who aren't ready to do that yet. And it's really important that we be aware and sensitive, you know, that not everybody's in the same place. And, and to create a safe space for people to be able to say no or to say, I am uncomfortable, or, you know, um, if, if you know, somebody's struggling, like just think about your venue, right?  
Speaker 4    00:31:31    There are some times in some industries like it's really hard to avoid. But I think, um, we do want another a disservice when we, when we, you know, there we, we talk a lot about all kinds of in inclusivity. Um, that's something else we need to think about, right? Is that for some people either, you know, like I have health issues that restrict what I can eat. You know, like people have different challenges and, and we need to be aware. Um, and, and I've seen people put in uncomfortable situations where you just don't have to like, you know, there's no need to ever pressure anybody to, to, to drink or to, you know, like I, I just, there's not a place for that. And, um, it's, uh, we can really do harm that we don't realize we're doing if we're not aware.  
Speaker 3    00:32:21    Yeah. So, so Brett, after your, after things really started going well for you and you went back to, to Cisco live where that stuff is, um, what, what was it like for you? Was it a big challenge or was it like, uh, this is, I'm not doing that anymore. How, how was that? Great,  
Speaker 5    00:32:36    Great question. So my sobriety occurs 15 days before Cisco live, and I go to my first Cisco live with 15 days of sobriety under, under my belt, having worked two as the guy who's ready to party, right? Although, I will say at that point, my partying typically occurred in my hotel room by myself because it had gotten to that point. Um, but, but yeah, so I lean on that part of my story a lot when I do my advocacy stuff around, uh, corporations things. Because, uh, I go to a, a meal with about 50 people in my org, at a, at a Greek restaurant. I'm 15 days sober. I don't have anybody in my corner yet. I don't know my people yet. I don't know how to do life sober. I don't know about sparkling water. To your point a minute ago, club soda with lime is an amazing thing, and I drink a lot of it. I have a drinking problem with sparkling water, just so we're clear <laugh>. Uh, but we're at this Greek restaurant and it's a party, and my boss and my bosses and my boss's boss are there, and we're all standing around a table. We've been all asked to stand up on chairs and sh shots of Uzo while somebody's dancing out on the table.  
Speaker 5    00:33:48    Yeah. I'm trying to take, I'm trying to paint a story for you for the guy who's who I know how to drink Uzo, believe me. Believe me when I tell you that I can drink Zo like, like you can't believe, and I've got 15 days of continuous sobriety under my belt, tricky business. Um, the second Cisco life, by then I've learned about sparkling water. By then, I've learned what Yvonne was talking about. I can remove myself from situations, and I've begun the process of looking for others. Still didn't find any, right? But now I'm this loud person by a series of accidents. Um, but yeah, I think, I think companies are becoming more aware of it. I, I'm aware of, uh, a group in Salesforce, uh, stood up a thing called sober force, and I've met the, the people that have started that. Um, there's another company that I've been talking to, a woman who's about three years down the road from me.  
Speaker 5    00:34:43    And so I'm, I'm kind of running around inside the company trying to do what I think you're describing. We might different differentiate a little bit on what that looks like, but the bottom line is, is first off, I don't lead with shame. People that are coming here to party down. It's none of my business. I'm not gonna be in anybody's face. But I think to your points, wouldn't it be nice if like, there was just an awareness around it and it wasn't just expected, right? Um, particularly for the person who is on the edge. 'cause for me, that 15 days, had I not caught that window of opportunity, I don't know how many more years I go, right? I can't know that mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, but that distance between my last drink is, is key. And I'll be honest, I keep a, I keep a drop of fear in my program.  
Speaker 5    00:35:28    'cause I'm terrified. Uh, my wife smells drinks that come to me, for example, like, and if I go into a room where it's all alcohol or a wedding, we'll take two cars. Like I have to, I have to take care of myself because this is a lifelong condition I have. Like, it's binary. So yeah, it's tricky. It can be tricky. It's easier now for me than it was at the beginning. So I'm more keenly aware of the person who is new or is getting curious. And I'm also keenly aware of how many people around me might be on their way to their bottom this very night. Right. So <laugh>, uh,  
Speaker 4    00:36:03    You, you mentioned, I, I I, I, you mentioned, uh, you know, seeking a, like a counselor, um, who specialized in this issue. I, I'd love for you to kinda unpack maybe how, how that helped. How did you find that person? I think sometimes we, um, I don't know. I haven't done therapy for the last couple years and it's done a world of good for me. Um, I think sometimes we, you know, we think either that, that it's, we're admitting something about ourselves if we do that. Um, can you talk a little bit about how you found that person, how that helped? Did it help? Do you recommend it? Like, yeah,  
Speaker 5    00:36:41    Yeah. So, so yeah. I mean this, and if, if people are interested in this part of my story too, I go at length on this in my podcast and, you know, it's there for that. Like, I'm, I'm not making any money off there. I mean, this whole thing about coming out and being open with my letting go of my shame and stigma, it's a huge thing. This is a huge new part of my life that I'm here comfortably talking about this. To answer your question, yes. So some, some biological things were happening to my body that required doctors to be involved. And for the first time, I admitted to a medical doctor, having lied to doctors my entire life about my consumption, the truth. And my wife is there with me, and she's crying because she's hearing me tell a doctor the truth for the very first time.  
Speaker 5    00:37:26    And he says five words, Brett Alcohol is not your friend. And he slides a piece of paper across to me that's a list of drug and alcohol counselors in that area. In my case it was Fort Collins, Colorado. And then I did what any person would do. I vetted them online or whatever, and I lucked out with this, this awesome human being who I get choked up when I think about what he, how it helped. So the answer is yes, it helped. Um, it's like any counseling. It may not be the right thing. It may not, I don't know. Um, if you're willing to have a link in your, the show notes for this, I can send you, uh, a link to something that I think is a really good one-stop shop to get started with some curiosity. Um, so, so that's, that's an offer as well.  
Speaker 5    00:38:10    My story, I, I can't know what happens if I don't meet Steve. Done Sure. Can't know. I can't know what happens when I tell him to not call me an alcoholic during that session and get vehemently and on my way out the door and him saying, I'm sorry, sit down. Everything's cool. Like, these are the things, these are the moments in my story where I kept going. And, uh, yeah. I can't, I, being a sober person is, is the whole boat for me. It's my life, right? So I've been quiet about it for nine years, and now I'm getting loud about it, uh, including right here with you guys. So cool.  
Speaker 2    00:38:46    That's great. That's great. Okay. I actually don't have anything else, Yvonne.  
Speaker 4    00:38:55    Yeah, yeah. I mean, I, I just, if there's anything else that, that Brett wanted to share with us that he had in mind that we haven't touched on yet. I mean, I, it's such a big topic. It's, it's, it's, and, uh, you know, it's, it's important to talk about, um, to be what it is, to be not not just a network engineer, but be a network engineer that's a human. And, uh, and, and to live as, you know, full embodied humans in the world around us. So, any, anything else you wanted to share? Yeah,  
Speaker 2    00:39:22    We're gonna now take a, a hedge survey. How many of the network engineers listening actually believe they're humans? Sorry.  
Speaker 5    00:39:34    So I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll take that opportunity to say a couple things. Um, I'm a firm believer that shame and stigma are literally killing people. Um, and, and that's, and that's tragic because I think in the, for the most part, they're, we're not bad people, right? We we're, we have a disease, we have a condition, we do bad things to support that often, but shame and stigma are getting in the way. So normalizing talking about it is, I think is paramount for our society. Second, for those of you that have any pull in your organizations, I'm becoming, I'm coming to believe that corporate America can lead this. I believe that with corporate America, things like sober force and other ones, things that are happening where there's an, there's a, an acknowledgement, use the word inclusivity. Like there's an acknowledgement of it that we can probably, at corporate America make more change to society than maybe arguably almost any other way that there are a, a way that could be very impactful.  
Speaker 5    00:40:42    And I'm, and I'm honored and, and excited to work toward that. So that if someday, you know, well, I, I'll I won't paint the picture in the future, I'll, I'll leave that there. Shame and stigma is problematic. Curiosity is key. People are not unique or alone and bad. And that normalization of talking about this stuff so that it's not a big deal if somebody goes in and says, Hey, you know what, Ali, maybe I've got this thing. What's this thing? Oh, this thing that I've actually heard about as opposed to guest about or wondered about or, or we're scared of, or whatever else. So, um, that's a pretty good soapbox right there, is what that is. <laugh>. Yeah. Yeah.  
Speaker 2    00:41:26    Anything else, Tom?  
Speaker 3    00:41:28    Yeah, I just wanna take just a second to talk directly to our listeners. Um, I hope that if anybody here needs to get help or thinks they might need to get help, let Brett's story be the reason that you make it happen. That's right. Um, he's shared some awesome stuff and I, you know, somebody, I hope somebody is, um, listening to this and it makes a difference in their life.  
Speaker 2    00:41:49    Yeah, I do too. That's awesome. Great. And so Brett, if people want to get in touch with you, how would they do that? Or if they wanna follow you or, I don't know, whatever.  
Speaker 5    00:42:00    So, yeah, so this whole thing started in April, 2022 when I went into the benefits team and started advocating for this group called shatterproof.org that I'm an, an ambassador for. And then during Mental Health Awareness Week, they said, Hey Brett, do you want to tell part of your story with our mental health coordinator for the entire company? And I said, oh, okay. And I've gotten over the shame and stigma hurdles of my own, which brings me to the next one, which was the blog. And the next one to answer your question, Russ, I would love if you, if you found my, the way I'm talking about this stuff, interesting. Come check out an episode or two of my podcast. The episodes are, are thematic and it's recovery conversations, or just look up my name and, and you'll find me. And Okay. And I would love it to be somebody that maybe helps some people. That's the whole gig, right? So, okay,  
Speaker 2    00:42:50    Good. Yeah. We'll, we'll put a link to your podcast in the show notes for people who want to go that direction or blog if they wanna learn more and, you know, don't be ashamed or whatever. If you feel like you need to go do that, or even if you're just curious about that, go check it out. I mean, there's nothing like, there's no, there's nothing here. Um, okay. Tom, where can people get in touch with you?  
Speaker 3    00:43:11    Uh, just search for Tom Amman on LinkedIn and Twitter and you'll probably find me.  
Speaker 2    00:43:15    Okay. And Yvonne,  
Speaker 4    00:43:17    Yeah, on Twitter at Sharp Network. And you can find me on LinkedIn if on sharp. Cool.  
Speaker 2    00:43:21    Awesome. And I'm Ms. White. Thanks Brett, so much for coming on and talking about this. This is a really important topic and thanks so much to our listeners who pay attention to this. Uh, we live in an information rich world. I say this all the time, almost at the end of every show now. And I really appreciate that you take the time out of the day just to listen to us talk about what we believe in and, and try to help you be a net better network engineer. And, uh, by the way, I do believe if we took the poll of everybody who thinks that they're actually a human, I really hope that comes back as a hundred percent <laugh>. But anyway, so thanks for listening to this episode of The Hedge, and we will catch you next time.